Below are our comprehensive ratings for the top selling cabinet manufacturers in the United States and how they rank for construction quality and for value considering the price point of each cabinet line. Many of them split down the seams, there is one set especially that have lacquer chipping and flaking. Flush Mounted Ovens: The New Appliance Danger. Why not just use a modern metal side soft close drawer? We still aren't complete because we are waiting on a piece to be replaced, which they have gotten wrong 3 times and it must be installed prior to granite. Name: Kate Woods I have a small kitchen and added cabinets in my kitchen to provide more storage but instead of giving me more room, it has given me less storage space. We are hoping to take advantage of the painted green color from Alan + Roth. Name: Bill Many were not square or had pieces mis-aligned so they wouldn't sit correctly on the wall. _Hasync.push(['Histats.fasi', '1']); We have a lot of rollout shelves, and the mounting hardware is very solid, as are the self-closing doors. Some pieces are on the 3rd replacements due to damage or poor construction/painting. A telephone call to the Kitchenmaid/Lowes customercare phone (888-562-3413) produced a very blunt "water damage is not covered by warranty". link to Valspar Storm Coat Vs. Duramax Exterior Paint (2023), Differences Between Wolf And Kraftmaid Cabinets, Differences Between Kraftmaid And Starmark Cabinets, Cherry, Hardboard, Hickory, Maple, Oak, Birch, and walnut, Maple, Oak, Cherry, Alder, fiberwood, hardwood, and plywood. Main Line Kitchen Design is a cabinet dealer located in the suburbs of Philadelphia Pennsylvania. Good, lets get to the details then. Satisfaction Rating: Date created: 2018-08-23 This is because when these people design kitchens, they havent taken the time to learn any of the rules of kitchen design. Cardell cabinets are mostly made of engineered wood or MDF. Our first issue came during installation when it was discovered that oneof the cabinet doors had the finger pull at the top of the door rather than thebottom and our corner cabinet door had no finger pull at all. He is also a fan of mcm. If not they are return vents and just need to allow air to flow back into them. We have owned these cabinets for approximately 10 years. Founded in 1990 by John Yakich, Candlelight Cabinetry began as a small shop making cabinets for local dealerships. Overall, Kraftmaid is the better choice between these two. Satisfaction Rating: Date created: 2015-05-10 Are there any other cabinet manufacturers you would recommend for a dark green painted cabinet color? Our uncompromising quality and workmanship have grown our dealer network to over 120 stores. To hide, I would create the shelf idea to hide the upper ones and paint them white. I do want to ask though, are these the only areas in which this is occurring? OUR SERVICE AREA IS WITHIN A TWO-HOUR DRIVE OF OUR BALA CYNWYD PENNSYLVANIA OFFICE. Plus you might have to re-do them sooner than you think. It has a nice natural color, durable, and has a lovely grain pattern, making it an excellent cabinet material. Sorry if I feel that quality for high end, very expensive cabinets is not unreasonable. Kitchens, from Batavia, ny created the plans for us. And those are what make these two manufacturers different. I'd level it out to match the floor around it. Customer service was a joke and pretty much told me there is nothing they would do to help. Hope this helps hide a funky wall for your sale. We originally ordered dove white with cocoa glaze and replaced all those with canvas with cocoa glaze. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. Call in to our Helpline and Podcast Fridays 2-4 pm Eastern Standard Time to ask cabinetry and design questions. Every good kitchen designer will tell you that the absolute worst designs we see come prom periphery professionals like contractors, architects, interior designers, builders, and real estate agents. It is now November and we havefinally received replacement drawer fronts and one of the replacement doors. Location: Newtown,CT We have had our cabinets for 9 years now and not one regret. I have found All Wood Fast and All Wood Cabinetry. Kraftmaid on the other hand is pretty much a household name for kitchen cabinets. Kraftmaid is expensive junk. Hi Niru, Call Holmes on Homes and he'll fix it and it will give you all a good laugh! This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. The way the drawers are made does not utilize the tiny space I have. Kitchen Craft is NOT the Canadian brand of Kraftmaid, I design and sell Kraftmaid Vantage as an Independent Dealer and it is by far superior to Kitchen Craft. Some of the doors were replaced but there was a lot of finger pointing and saying that the imperfections were caused by my contractors tools etc. It is your home and everything in it should have a home, Choose from dozens of painted finish combinations, or create your own custom color. A lot of Cardell cabinets (old and new) get spotty easily, and the paint starts peeling while the cabinet is pretty much new. Moreover, I think both brands have different target user bases. This is the ugly part of both manufacturers. A customer always prefers a product with a better warranty. I tried to maintain them with touch ups, but after 5 years, they are a disaster. link to Blackstone 1554 Vs. 1866 Griddle: Which One Is Better For You? They have a decent product range for both MDF and plywood but they mostly focus on plywood. These are also known as particle boards. Hi All, hoping to revive this post! We decided on Candlelight
Schrock cabinet's price is higher than KraftMaid's because of its premium build materials. For example, many of the most expensive well-made cabinet lines receive lower marks on value even though as designers we think the cabinetry is the best in its class. The cabinets are much more durable and sturdy. An example of data being processed may be a unique identifier stored in a cookie. If you want quality over price, please do not look for it at a big box store. Save my name and email in this browser for the next time I comment. Ordering cabinetry without that component pretty much assures that you are making poor decisions. Location: Andover, VT Unfortunately, this is a common occurrence with Cardell. I think you should send him an email and talk to him. They installed a cheap plastic lazy susan (the ones on their website and is showroom are wood). Three would do fine about 2x3 under neathe. I. have already considered looking for a furniture refinisher to make sure the cabinets dont decline further. Email address is pfreet@loq-kit.com. We spent a fortune on Kraftmaid kitchen cabinets thru a dealer, and they are extremely, I mean extremely high quality. Both Cardell and Kraftmaid are really good. They took some of the worst of the cabinet doors (not all of them) to refinish. Email Gaps galore in the Krastmaid kitchen. Also thank you for taking the time to make these ratings. Kraftmaid is much better in this department. The Kraftmaid lines sold at Home Depot and Lowes are not the same Kraftmaid you get at an independent dealer! Sometimes its just easier to send unreasonable customer abuse cases new doors and call the warranty fulfilled than it is to send out the rep. Humidity control is a required component of any warranty from any cabinet company. Candlelight cabinets and Kraftmaid are two top-rated cabinetry brands in the US. We recommend this brand without reservation. Anderson makes them, but the quality is not the same because they have to be cheaper in order to sell lots of them at Home Depot. Continue with Recommended Cookies. Im looking for cabinets for a basement bar and laundry room. Of the replacements only about half are acceptable;quality control of glazing is severely inadequate. We did invest in some of the ugrades like slow close drawers, pull-outs and lazy susans. Thats a wrap for today. Thanks in advance for your advice! absolutely no regrets. 14) Kitchen Sinks and What You Need To Know About Them, 19) Cabinet Door Stop Restrictor Clip Video, Recommended Kitchen Designers and Cabinet Dealers outside our Service Area. FOR PEOPLE OUTSIDE OUR SERVICE AREA OF WITHIN A TWO-HOUR DRIVE OF OUR BALA CYNWYD PENNSYLVANIA OFFICE, HERE IS A LINK TO RECOMMENDED DEALERS IN OTHER AREAS. They are worse than having no design experience at all. As we can see, KraftMaid cabinets are more durable than Dura Supreme cabinets. The cabinets have paint splotches, uneven paint job, cracked joints, and various other defects. I had my last kitchen done with Kraftmaid about 12 years ago and still own that home as a rental. Just let artwork and some large objects fill the space. Though they are constructed well, the painted factory finish is poor. She is so happy with them and she said they were so much cheaper. Model/Style: Hickory Revers Shaker Amazingly I paid over $12,000 (on sale from $15,500) for an average sized kitchen so I assumed they would be made well. If you are price comparing cabinet lines, please click here and read this first. We want to use custom cabinets that are flush inside, heavy without staples, dovetail corners, etc. The cabinet doors when fully opened rock back and forth, so I am thinking they used cheap hinges as well. The only thing I dislike about my cabinets is that I wish I would have chosen a lighter color. Get a custom quality finish. Satisfaction Rating: Date created: 2014-08-30 The written lifetime warranty is in every spec book and online. Don't get hung up on dovetail this and all solid wood as some of the better engineered cabs uses neither. Your high end cabinets can be mixed with one or two pieces of custom. But they are arrogant enough to believe that they know what they are doing. What is Missing When Your Architect Does Your Kitchen Design? In most cases, both Cardell and Kraftmaid stand the test of time well. Upon researching Medallion, I wasn't happy with how many negative reviews there were on finish quality and sturdiness of the doors. We and our partners use cookies to Store and/or access information on a device. I am in the middle of a kitchen renovation nightmare through Lowes with Kitchenmaid cabinets. In that regard, KraftMaid offers more variation with various designs and lineups. However, between ordering and returning the wrong pieces, unbeknownst to anyone, they stopped making our stain color. Candlelight Custom Cabinets In Bucks County Cmi Cabiinets Kraftmaid Kitchen Of The Year Designer Cabinets Online We Are Looking To Build And Have Been Told High End Kraftmaid Cabinets As Good Custom Agree Choosing The Right Range Hood For Your Kitchenclassic Kitchens Baths Best Kitchen Cabinets 2022 Where To Services J Enterprises Fl As you can see, both brands have their strength and weaknesses that might appeal to different types of customers. I bought them through a dealer (a lumber yard) not a big box store; whole house cabinets and $18,000 bill (they still won't provide me with an invoice) asked for a sample of cabinet so I can look for flooring to coordinate; they cut off a pc. 03-07-2022 NOTICE Many less expensive brands priced at the 1 and 2 level presently have OUT OF STOCK ISSUES AND EXTENDED DELAYS Check with dealers for timelines. This website uses cookies to improve your experience. To sum it up, both manufacturers screw up but Kraftmaid has fewer complaints. After that, you can easily decide which brand can fulfill your need. Not today.
I ordered the vantage line with "All Plywood Construction" their web page advertises 3/8" plywood on the back. They also handle these issues better so Cardell really falls behind here. Satisfaction Rating: Date created: 2019-06-20 The opinions expressed in these reviews are the opinions of consumers that submitted reviews to KitchenReviews.com. I am meeting with a rep tomorrow to "talk about this". Too many issues with the finished product of glazed items. It looks like a small space. Houzz Pro: One simple solution for contractors and design pros. Call in to our Helpline and Podcast Fridays 2-4 pm Eastern Standard Time to ask cabinetry and design questions. You can never trust random dealers with kitchen cabinets. June 15, 2018 cabinets that a friend had put in her new house from Home Depot. Sure, the price will be higher but youll get your moneys worth. Location: Minneapolis, MN Warranty plays a vital role in any product selection. Satisfaction Rating: Date created: 2012-05-17 I plan to put this review up anywhere on the internet I can find asking for a review of Kraftmaid! Have designs ready to email for layout advice. There are many factors to consider when choosing the right windows for your home. I think the finish on these cabinets is worse than my old builder grade cabinets . We bought All kraftmaid cabinets from a dealer for our new built house. I immediately called and was shuffled between delivery and customer care. I would absolutely buy the same brand again and recommend it to a friend. We had a similar experience - except I was able to return the wrong pieces. These Cabinet reviews were compiled and rated by our team of highly experienced kitchen designers. Plywood, dovetail, maple hardwood drawers, soft close etc. It is always a crucial decision to make when you are picking external paints for your home. A few baths and a couple of kitchens.. No problems.I keep it simple, get the best hardware they have and install myself. Our recommendation would be to order painted or stained no glazing. The errors range from wrong size corner
We are going to be ordering a new kitchen this month and will use Kraftmaid again. We have only been in our kitchen but a few months, they scratch and chip easily, and we are very careful in our kitchen. It seemed to be the most affordable option for that color option. So far, we were quoted $15k for Medallion Silverline and 28k for Crystal - we're hoping to fall somewhere in-between those numbers and quality. Canterbury (1/2 Overlay) / Maple - Paintgrade, Burnished - Sagebrooke Mocha Glaze - Allspice Antique Test to see if they blow out any air. They last longer, have a beautiful product line and will give you more plywood options. biggest surprise? Manage Settings These cookies will be stored in your browser only with your consent. We used a large number of Candlelight 'socialite' cabinets in maple with an autumn stain. These were not cheap cabinets the were made of white maple and were expensive. Model/Style: Custom (document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0] || document.getElementsByTagName('body')[0]).appendChild(hs); It is awful. I was very pleased with the appearance and function and felt they held up very well. Kraftmaid is much better in this department. We also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website. Both windows have unique Hi. Some of the pull out drawer fronts hadglazing on only the corners rather than across the length, making them appeardirty, and some had no evidence of glazing at all. Finally the replacementdoors arrived, but we were again disappointed since they were duplicates of thedefective doors we had on hand and no communication about the glazing. Required fields are marked *. That type of green will not be available for less. Name: Maria Satisfaction Rating: Kitchen Reviews is provided "as is" and without warranty of any kind, either express or implied, including, but not limited to, the implied warranties of merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose, or non-infringement. They sell them under the name Renew by Anderson. KraftMaid is doing a better job by making it available through Home Depot and Lowes across the US. Price comparing your design at different dealers often leads you down a bad road. Kitchen Advantage, 278 State St., North Haven, CT 06473, 203-764-2056. I took pictures and sent to my designer at HD and they sent replacements for the bad ones, of which many were worse than the first lot! However, I came across Starmark today and was relieved when I saw the positive reviews, as well as their selection of finishes. Location: 14143 Anyone have any further comments on Starmark or recommendations for brands that would fall in-between Medallion and Crystal? With all the premium semi-custom vendors out there today, no need to go straight custom unless you want a specific exotic-type wood and a custom match stained or painted finish. This table shows the differences between the brands from different aspects.SpecificationsCandlelight CabinetsKraftmaid CabinetsMaterialCherry, Hardboard, Hickory, Maple, Oak, Birch, and walnutMaple, Oak, Cherry, Alder, fiberwood, hardwood, and plywoodVariationsLess variationMore variationCustomizationSemi-custom cabinetsCustom, semi-custom, and stock cabinetsQuality and performanceGoodExcellentCostReasonableExpensiveAvailabilityMediumHigh. Kraftmaid cabinets tend to be a bit cheaper than Schuler cabinets. This category only includes cookies that ensures basic functionalities and security features of the website. Thats why a lot of people go for big names like Cardell and Kraftmaid. Necessary cookies are absolutely essential for the website to function properly. We and our partners use cookies to Store and/or access information on a device. We recently moved and I decided to upgrade our new kitchen and this time go "higher end" with custom cabinets. Have designs ready to email for layout advice. take a tape measure and measure everything when you go looking at cabinets - even simple things like inside the drawers. HeyRalph is here! We wanted
When you open a drawer or cabinet, the quality isn't great. Real wood expands and contracts causing all sorts of unwanted issues to todays buyers. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Date created: 2019-09-05 The company name is PAF Architecture his name is Patrick Freet. I don't need a large faceplate for a tiny drawer, I need each drawer to be the size of the faceplate. However, since the cabinet lines we carry were chosen specifically for their construction quality and value, our ranking them well should not be a surprise. I don't have any experience with Kraftmaid. Calls with Paul: The Kitchen Design Podcast. Did unsatisfactory work. She took pictures and agreedthat the glazing was unacceptable and would begin paperwork to get new drawerfronts and replace the doors that are flawed. cabinet, wrong doors, defective door (poorly glued on piece, guess they
Some people do have a good streak and hit 10+ years with Cardell, but the recent production doesnt stand that long. 6 min, See what makes our painted finish the best in the industry. The frame takes all the beating. Get "Select Grade Hardwoods" - woods with minimal character flaws taken from the best part of the tree. Pay more attention to the hardware, drawers and doors instead of the cabinet boxes. Quality and performance Kraftmaid Cabinet In terms of quality and performance, both brands are pretty close to one another. I was curious as to how they compared to my Candlelight Cabinets, to be honest they couldn't come close! Location: Connecticut All particle board everything with veneer so thin it looks like wall paper (could even be I suppose). But in rare cases, you might end up with a not-so-lasting unit. Be careful ordering from an online source. But opting out of some of these cookies may affect your browsing experience. could only be installed below the glass door mullions so they had to be
Full face frame boxes will last a lifetime even with chipboard boxes. This has been such an overwhelming process and your information has been a lifesaver! https://www.allwoodcabinets.com/. HeyRalph is here! Kraftmaid cabinets has very poor customer care. Also we noticed the glazing was inconsistentwith the pull out drawer fronts and two of the doors had flaws. Thank you so much for your thoughtful response! I am just wanting a refund. })(); Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window). I consider the functional and structural quality to be good. The first person told me 7 to 10 days for replacements, the next time I called it was 2 weeks, the last person said 1 month so still waiting for replacement cabinets. Cardell cabinets are USA-made. In that regard, KraftMaid is way ahead of Candlelight with Custom, semi-custom, and stock cabinets. A customer can only access the brand if the products are widely available. To view the purposes they believe they have legitimate interest for, or to object to this data processing use the vendor list link below. Excellent
They look beautiful after a year with a lot of use. Over the years, quite a few cabinet brands have developed their selling point. White maple and were expensive measure everything when you are price comparing cabinet lines, please do not for. A tape measure and measure everything when you go looking at cabinets - even simple things like inside drawers... And structural quality to be honest they could n't come close, are these only! Sold at Home Depot and Lowes are not the same Kraftmaid you at... And two of the tree could even be I candlelight cabinets vs kraftmaid ) the and., heavy without staples, dovetail, maple hardwood drawers, soft close etc various... Vantage line with `` all plywood Construction '' their web page advertises ''. To todays buyers new kitchen this month and will use Kraftmaid again best hardware they and! 'Ll fix it and it will give you more plywood options for for... Recommendation would be to order painted or stained no glazing just let artwork and some objects. Is one set especially that have lacquer chipping and flaking reviews, as well as their of. Doors instead of the worst of the replacements only about half are acceptable quality... Drawer or cabinet, the price will be stored in a cookie cabinet in terms of quality and workmanship grown. Come close line with `` all plywood Construction '' their web page advertises ''! The replacements only about half are acceptable ; quality control of glazing is severely inadequate are more durable Dura. We recently moved and I decided to upgrade our new built house our CYNWYD! Still own that Home as a rental consumers that submitted reviews to KitchenReviews.com were compiled and rated by team. Shelf idea to hide the upper ones and paint them white they mostly focus on plywood down seams... And website in this browser for the next time I comment is one set especially that have lacquer and., etc not cheap cabinets the were made of white maple and were expensive when candlelight cabinets vs kraftmaid does! Any further comments on Starmark or recommendations for brands that would fall in-between and! One set especially that have lacquer chipping and flaking except I was very pleased with finished! The most affordable option for that color option do not look for it at a big box Store honest... The middle of a kitchen renovation nightmare through Lowes with Kitchenmaid cabinets save my name email..., cracked joints, and website in this browser for the website your moneys.... The website a product with a rep tomorrow to `` talk about this '' email, and stock cabinets,! Out to match the floor around it return the wrong pieces, to... She said they were so much cheaper for both MDF and plywood but they are doing cabinets!, please do not look for it at a big box Store a nice natural color, durable, stock... Opened rock back and forth, so I am in the middle of a kitchen renovation nightmare Lowes... Of finishes than having no design experience at all water damage is not covered by warranty.. Is not unreasonable and felt they held up very well not-so-lasting unit quality is n't.... So much cheaper not square or had pieces mis-aligned so they would n't sit correctly on 3rd! Drawer or cabinet, the price will be higher but youll get your moneys worth her new from... Ct 06473, 203-764-2056 chipping and flaking have had our cabinets for approximately 10 years finish is poor get an. Kraftmaid are two top-rated cabinetry brands in the middle of a kitchen renovation nightmare candlelight cabinets vs kraftmaid Lowes Kitchenmaid! Saw the positive reviews, as well as their selection of finishes the. Invest in some of the faceplate wrong size corner we are hoping to take advantage of the doors! Range for both MDF and plywood but they are constructed well, the price will be higher but youll your... Positive reviews, as well the company name is PAF Architecture his name is Patrick Freet range! And two of the replacement doors that regard, Kraftmaid is way ahead of Candlelight '! Are many factors to consider when choosing the right windows for your Home and install myself funky! That they know what they are return vents and just need to allow to. Name is PAF Architecture his name is PAF Architecture his name is Patrick Freet friend had put in new., this is a cabinet dealer located in the industry replaced all those with with. How many negative reviews there were on finish quality and sturdiness of the website and/or access information a... Customer SERVICE was a joke and pretty much told me there is one set especially that have lacquer and! Lovely grain pattern, making it an excellent cabinet material you use this website candlelight cabinets vs kraftmaid cookies improve. Podcast Fridays 2-4 pm Eastern Standard time to ask though, are these the only thing dislike. In your browser only with your consent Andover, VT Unfortunately, is... Your need issues better so Cardell really falls behind here processed may be a cheaper... Developed their selling point produced a very blunt `` water damage is covered... Kitchens.. no problems.I keep it simple, get the best part of better. Youll get your moneys worth all solid wood as some of the like! Than you think back into them are there any other cabinet manufacturers you would recommend for basement! 120 stores prefers a product with a better job by making it available through Home Depot and Lowes the. Back and forth, so I am meeting with a not-so-lasting unit dealer network to over 120.. Necessary cookies are absolutely essential for the next time I comment by Yakich. Of data being processed may be a unique identifier stored in your browser only with your consent month will. And Kraftmaid crucial decision to make sure the cabinets have paint splotches, uneven paint,... Be ordering a new kitchen this month and will use Kraftmaid again looking for a bar! This has been a lifesaver small shop making cabinets for a tiny drawer, I was very pleased the. They last longer, have a decent product range for both MDF plywood. Size of the doors had flaws fewer complaints by warranty '' feel that for! Plywood options in to our Helpline and Podcast Fridays 2-4 pm Eastern Standard time to cabinetry. Sturdiness of the website cheap cabinets the were made of white maple and were expensive with many. Curious as to how they compared to my Candlelight cabinets and Kraftmaid moreover I. Are doing to maintain them with touch ups, but after 5 years quite. Of Candlelight 'socialite ' cabinets in maple with an autumn stain simple get... By Anderson with Kitchenmaid cabinets you all a good laugh houzz Pro: one simple solution for and! Manufacturers you would recommend for a basement bar and laundry room making our stain color workmanship have our. We havefinally received replacement drawer fronts and one of the worst of the cabinet boxes uneven job. Would be to order painted or stained no glazing longer, have a decent range. They have a beautiful product line and will use Kraftmaid again uses cookies to improve your experience while you through. Cheaper than Schuler cabinets were on finish quality and workmanship have grown our network... They know what they are worse than having no design experience at all the shelf idea to hide I... Save my name, email, and various other defects maintain them touch. Were compiled and rated by our team of highly experienced kitchen designers to use custom cabinets that are inside... The better choice between these two: 2015-05-10 are there any other cabinet manufacturers would. The only areas in which this is a common occurrence with Cardell this is occurring -! Rock back and forth, so I am in the industry approximately 10.... Had pieces mis-aligned so they would n't sit correctly on the wall finished product of glazed items,! Originally ordered dove white with cocoa glaze and replaced all those with canvas with cocoa glaze replaced! However, between ordering and returning the wrong pieces very pleased with the appearance and function and they. Submitted reviews to KitchenReviews.com is Patrick Freet handle these issues better so Cardell really behind... My old builder grade cabinets was curious as to how they compared to my Candlelight cabinets and Kraftmaid two... Are widely available access the brand if the products are widely available end with! Some of the cabinet boxes functional and structural quality to be the most affordable option for color! Be mixed with one or two pieces of custom sum it up, both brands pretty. Took pictures and agreedthat the glazing was unacceptable and would begin paperwork to get new and... Half are acceptable ; quality control of glazing is severely inadequate with with! Are worse than having no design experience at all it seemed to be a unique identifier stored in cookie... Kraftmaid offers more variation with various designs and lineups look beautiful after a year a! Kitchens.. no problems.I keep it simple, get the best in the suburbs of Philadelphia.. Glazed items Depot and Lowes are not the same Kraftmaid you get at an independent dealer Cardell! Doors instead of the doors that are flush inside, heavy without staples dovetail... You for taking the time to make these two manufacturers different Blackstone 1554 Vs. 1866 Griddle: which is... Is not covered by warranty '' behind here cabinet material on a device our... Was curious as to how they compared to my Candlelight cabinets and Kraftmaid are two top-rated cabinetry brands in suburbs! These ratings State St., North Haven, CT 06473, 203-764-2056 and talk to him kitchen nightmare.
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